PIE – documentary evidence 4 – UP, ‘Childhood Rights’, and Paedophilia – some questions and answers

[NOTE OF WARNING: In absolutely no sense whatsoever does the printing of the below material constitute any type of endorsement; in fact the very reverse]

Below is a range of material from PIE’s first journal Understanding Paedophilia, the predecessor of Magpie. I have copied the most significant material from those issues I was able to access.

Vol. 1 No. 2, June/July 1976

Cover pic: tearful Mark Lester, from film Run Wild, Run Free (1969)

p. 2. ‘Notices’
Ed: Warren Middleton (p)
Research Director: Humphfrey Barton (p)
Regular Correspondents; Steve Barker (p), USA, Graeme Parrish (p), New Zealand, Bernard Beafort (p), France, Richard Docker (p), Australia, J E Rekustad, NAFP/Norway.
Regular Contributors: Keith R Hose, John Bradshaw (p), Humphfrey Barton, Dr Frits Bernard, Dr Edward Brongersma, Warren Middleton, Tom O’Carroll.
[‘(p)’ indicates a pseudonym]

Dr Edward Brongersma, ‘Love In Education: The Unapproachable Risk’, pp. 2-4

Cyril Halley (p), ‘Lewis Carroll Revisited’, pp. 4-5
Lewis Carroll spent his life sublimating what he regarded as ‘abnormal desires’. Yet his love for children was hardly surpassed in his own, or any other age, and his contributions to world literature certainly need no further appraisal. He died at Guilford on January the 14th, 1898, and his gravestone carries the name Charles Lutwidge Dodgson made immortal… HERE LIES THE REMAINS OF LEWIS CARROLL, AND CHILDREN THE WORLD OVER CAN REMEMBER THEIR LOVING FRIEND.’ (p. 5)

Review of William Kraemer (ed), The Forbidden Love: The Normal & Abnormal Love of Children, reviewed by Humphrey Barton (p) (a lecturer in sociology at a British university), p. 5.

Alan Stanley, ‘Angels of the Lyre’, p. 6. Reviewed by Warren Middleton.

‘It’s the Magnificent Six’, p. 7
New EC:
Keith Hose – re-elected to serve as National Chairperson for the coming year
Warren Middleton – re-elected as National Vice Chairperson/PIE Magazine Editor
Tom O’Carroll – elected as PIE General Secretary/responsible for the formation of local groups/PIE members’ contact service/Publicity
David C Grove – elected as Director of PIE’s forthcoming children’s rights campaign/responsible for distribution of mail
Charles Napier – elected as Treasurer/responsible for recruitment of new members.
Peter Righton – elected as Organiser of prison-hospital visits/general correspondence/PIE befriending.
Want applicants for Legal adviser and Director of Research.

‘PIE has asked U.P. to convey their thanks to all who attended the AGM, especially Miss Nettie Pollard of the NCCL, and PIE member No. 149 who came direct from France for the event.’ (p. 7)

‘Concern over List 99’, p. 7
NCCL concerned about an envelope which has gone missing, containing a ‘secret’ government file, a DoE blacklist of 1000 people said to be unfit for the teaching profession.
Nettie Pollard has appealed for anyone who thinks they may be included on the list to come forward.

‘Judge Slams Sex Law’, p. 7
Justice Neil McKinnon, QC attacked age of consent law as ‘An attempt to protect fully mature young women against their own natural inclinations’. After 22 year old Jonathan Groves and his brother David were in court having admitted having intercourse with two 15-year old schoolgirls. Jonathan received conditional discharge, and David a suspended 9 months jail sentence.

‘P.C. ‘Whacko’ Quits’, p. 8
Ex P.C. Anthony Betteridge, 36, fired after admitting to five charges of assault, indecent assault and gross indecency with young boys.

‘PIE’s New Campaign’, p. 8
An inquiry into physical/chemical castration of sex offenders.

Vol. 1 No. 3, Aug/Sept 1976

Cover ‘The Modern Ganymede: Bjorn Andresen’, photo from Death in Venice

Douglas Sarff (‘NewsWest’ Editor), ‘Sex Begins At A Very Early Age: The Work and Theories of the Guyon Society’, pp. 2-4
Reprinted from an American gay journal

Tom O’Carroll, ‘News Report: The PIE Survey’, pp. 4-5
A questionnaire, basic things
In 2 years PIE has attracted over 200 members. 96 took part in the survey. Two were women.
Of men, 68% attracted to boys only, 13% to girls only, 19% to both.
One in five of male paedophiles were married. Much higher for heteros (75%) than homos (7%)
Majority (59%) also attracted to adults. (p. 4)

‘Your Letters’, pp. 5-6
One from ‘Charles Gerriovenski’, saying similar things to in later issue
Also from a former headmaster, ‘Michael Gooch’, who received a 12 month suspended sentence for ‘offences’ involving young boys.

Reviews of Desmond Stewart, The Vampire of Mons; John F Trimble, Paedophilia; Dr. George P Rossman, Paederasty: Sexual experience between Men and Boys. Reviewed by John Bradshaw (p), David Grove, Humphrey Barton (p) respectively., p. 6.

Grove bio, p. 6. Born in 1904, spent most of childhood in China, then studied history at Wadham College, Oxford. Lived in various parts of the world, including being Assistant Deputy Officer (Deputy Magistrate) in Nigeria. Enlisted in Welsh Guards, then into teaching career in 1939. Now retired.

‘Looking Around’, p. 7.
Review of Visconti Death in Venice.
‘Visconti had long toyed with the idea of bringing Mann’s masterpiece to the screen, but when reality supplanted the dream, eh was almost defeated by the casting of Tadzio, a part demanding a boy of rare beauty and exceptional charm.
His searches for this ‘perfect’ boy took the director all over Europe. But the gods appeared to favour him, finally rewarding his efforts in Scandinavia. Bjorn Andresen, his beautiful Swedish prodigy, seemed tailor-made for the casting, and with characteristic flair the delighted Visconti proclaimed him “the most beautiful boy in the world.”’

‘Dr Humphrey Barton gave a highly successful paper on paedophilia at the Manchester Gaysoc/British Sociological Association’s conference in early September.
The conference was well attended by other notables including Glenys Parry and Ken Plummer.
Nice one Humphrey!’ (p. 7)

‘The PIE-Do-File’
Author Yul Duersted has been withheld permission to publicise Pie in any of his future works. (p. 7)

PIE formally established two years ago in October by three members of Scottish Minorities Group under chairmanship of Michael Hanson. (p. 7) [This was a mistake – it was three, not two, years previously]

‘Exit Jenkins, Enter Rees’, p. 7
Asking if Merlyn Rees likely to be sympathetic. Not sure.

Vol. 1 No. 4 (1977)

Picture of Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver on front.
Editor: Warren Middleton
Research Director: Dr. Humphrey Barton (p)
Regular Contributors: Keith R. Hose, John Bradshaw (p) , Dr. Frits Bernard. Dr. Edward Brongersam, Tom O’Carroll, David C Grove, Dr. Humphrey Barton, Warren Middleton
Regular Correspondents; Steve Barker (p), USA, Graeme Lovejoy (p), New Zealand, Bernard Beaufort (p), France, Richard Docker (p), Australia, J E Rekustad, NAFF – Norway

Address given as 1, Elgin Avenue, London W9.
Printed by the Wellington Bureau, 23, Craven Street, Charing Cross WC2.

Special thanks with news item ‘fighting for justice’ on p. 10 of this issue – thanks Miss Nettie Pollard and the Executive Committee of the NCCL; Mr Mike Rowland, Mr John Gallagher and the EC of the Labour Campaign for Gay Rights; Jo Richardson, Labour MP for Barking; Mr Michael Burbidge of Icebreakers; Mr Antony Grey, ex Director of the Albany Trust; the staff of the People’s News Service; Mr Johannes Werres, editor GAY NEWS GERMANY/BOY LOVE NEWS; Mr Michael Mason, news editor GAY NEWS; Dr. Arabella Melville and Colin Johnson, editors of LIBERTINE; the PEACE NEWS collective; Mr Andy Leighton and staff of IT; and last but by no means least, to Mr Keith Hose, Mr Tom O’Carroll and the remainder of PIE’s EC. (all p. 2)

Dr Frits Bernard, ‘The Phenomenon of Paedophilia’, pp. 2-3

‘Out into the Open: Keith Hose explodes some myths’, pp. 4, 11

‘Paedophile was not a word in my dictionary when I recognised myself as homosexual. I expected people to accept the relationships that I’d had with 11 year old boys at school when I was 16; but they didn’t.

It wasn’t always a disapproving reaction; often it was viewed as something best not talked about. And because I wanted to accept my homosexuality, and because I was also attracted to adults, I conned myself into thinking that because sex with children under 13 was difficult, then I shouldn’t seek out such relationships, and should take relationships as they came. But that was unrealistic. It is very rare that relationships just happen. You either go out and look for them, or you put yourself in a position for them to happen.

I used to get very depressed about my relationships with the boys at school. I felt there was something missing, and it was this gap which drove me to identify myself as a paedophile. This was just before PAL (Paedophile Action for Liberation) and PIE (Paedophile Information Exchange – purely a newsletter at first) started up about two years ago.
A lot of gay people don’t want to talk about paedophilia because they feel that paedophiles deserve severe social oppression. Some of them are frightened that the image of homosexuality is being openly associated with paedophiles. This is silly because people outside the gay movement will be able to see that there are a certain proportion of gays who identify themselves, to different degrees, as paedophiles, and a certain proportion who don’t.

If paedophilia remains hidden, then the myth that all homosexuals are attracted to younger people will continue. But this tries to compartmentalise paedophiles as a less worthy section of the gay community and ignores the positive aspects of paedophilia, and the existence in most pre-pubertal children, of a sexuality which various pieces of research have proven. (p. 4)
[Then various statistics]

PIE quoted these findings in its evidence in its evidence to the Home Office Criminal Law Revision Committee (5) and gave other reasons why we ask for wide changes in the law.

We tried to show the harm and suffering caused, not by the paedophilic relationship as is popularly imagined, but by the use of the criminal law which sends the adult to prison, and which can mean the severing of a long standing mutual relationship. The child and the parents can suffer just as much as the paedophile.

The child who successively seeks out adults as sex partners – or other children as sex partners for that matter – can be taken away from his/her parents, whether they approve of the relationship or not, and be put into care.

PIE argued from the point of view that if a child gets pleasure from a sexual relationship and seeks one out, then he/she should be allowed to engage in such relationships, and should not be regarded as being in ‘moral danger’. The danger and harm as evidenced by the research findings comes, not from a mutual relationship with an older person, but from the deeply rooted feelings fo society that sexuality does harm because it’s ‘wrong’.

We suggested abolition of the age of consent from the criminal law because we believe it is ridiculous for the law to say that below 16 or below 21 people are incapable of giving consent. They are certainly capable of giving consent, but whether this can be communicated to other people is another matter. Therefore, we suggested that the criterion should be ‘communication of consent’, and since we are talking about simple verbal terms of whether someone liks something or wants something, we suggested that below the age of 4 a child could not communicate, although this may not be true in every case.

Law from having relationship with children under 4, and in the case of children over 3 and under 10, a similar civil injunction could also be made if there was a complaint made by those close to the child (parent or guardian, doctor, social worker and so o) where it was proved by the administrators of the Children’s Acts that there was doubt as to whether consent could be communicated.

For children between 10 and 18, we said there should be no legal restrictions in cases which did not involve proven physical/psychological harm. Ten is the legal age of responsibility, and if a child is deemed responsible for its criminal acts, then it should also be responsible for its own sex life.

The Criminal Law Revision Committee will not be publishing its report for a couple of years, but already there are encouraging signs that attitudes are beginning to change. The National Council for Civil Liberties asked in its evidence for the age of consent to be lowered….. (p. 4)

Charles Gerriovenski, ‘A Paederastic Experience’, pp. 5-6

Talking about his relationship with an 11/12 year old boy for about a year, and how it lost him his job.
‘….The boy – I will call him Peter – had an exceptional singing voice. I was his teacher, and we worked and lived together for three years before sex reared its by no means ugly head.
He made the initial move, though I think he would not have done so had he thought it might have been rejected; let’s say it happened mutually. One evening when he came to say ‘good night’, he seemed unable to communicate verbally, but simply clutched my hand and wept. Wen I asked what was wrong his sobs redoubled. I held his head in my hands and stroked his back, just as a parent would comfort a child who’d hurt himself. I lent him my handkerchief and he went off to bed without saying anything significant.
[…Mentions that he was married…]
Peter had strong musical leanings, and, during that year – his singing matured wonderfully (we did some splendid recordings together), although his other schoolwork showed neither improvement nor deterioration. I waqs a little disappointed that he did not appear to develop socially. But I suppose most of his efforts in this direction were devoed to our relationship.

On the sexual front, we expressed our desires fully, and it was a wonderful experience to climax in an atmosphere of love and relaxation, instead of what is most children’s introduction to sex – guilt-ridden, frantic ‘wanks’ behind the pavilion, eyes constantly skinned for unwanted onlookers. In my locked bedroom, we were able to put the fear of interruption on one side and make love to each other slowly and tenderly as becomes love’s first bloom.

His first few orgasms were enjoyed quietly, but they soon became as voluptuous as any adults. From our third meeting, we both ‘came’ on every occasion, except once, when we lay in each other’s arms for half an hour or so. (Though naked, we did not feel a need for orgasm, yet were as spiritually refreshed afterwards as at other times).

Once he had become an active partner, he showed his true colours as a lover, displaying a combination of consideration and passion which was natural and unforced. We both preferred giving to taking, yet were not afraid to accept what was given wholeheartedly and really enjoy one another.

Physically, Peter was similar to many other boys I have known – small and sturdy with deep chest and powerful limbs. His round, intelligent face expressed both humour and passion. More unusual, perhaps, was an exceptionally fine and shapely pair of buttocks. Full fleshed without being coarse, they jutted proudly behind him

As a sexual partner, I found him immoderately attractive. His hairless skin was suntanned and silky, his flesh both firm and yielding, his kisses rousing. But despite these advantages, I never looked upon him as ‘object’, and I always encouraged his emerging individuality as a person in his own right….. [end p. 5]

What sexual techniques were used?
First and foremost, we were always gentle with each other. In fact, he would usually refer to our activities in a phrase he himself coined: “being gentle together”.

Basically, we kissed, cuddled, nuzzled, hugged, stroked, embraced and fondled while standing, lying, sitting or straddling. At some point in the proceedings we’d shed our clothes, and when our kisses and caresses had roused us, we’d take turns to masturbate one another. On these occasions we would usually lubricate each other with cold cream.

After a few weeks, we experimented with other forms of love play such as inter-femoral thrusting and genital kissing. All in all, our practices were remarkably similar to those of adult heterosexuals, except for penetration. This I never attempted as the disproportion of size would seem to be inescapably painful for him.

On one particularly memorable occasion, Peter was unusually lusty and, as soon as we were undressed, he fetched the pot of cold cream, came over to my bed and ‘oiled me up’. Returning the compliment I concluded by gently sliding back his foreskin. He immediately climbed over me, insinuated his knees between mine, encircled me tightly in his arms and, using one of my well lubricated groins as his love channel, proceeded to bring himself to a climax entirely under his own steam. Needless to say, I did not lie idly by. I kissed his head and hair while fondling his ears and neck. But my main contribution was to hold him by his buttocks, one in each hand, to help him to an even rhythm. Indeed, it seemed that my role was increasingly to play the woman for him, and this encounter was the nearest we ever came to peno—vaginal intercourse.
Eventually, in the long summer holidays while separated from me for two months, he told them [his parents] all about it. My career was at an end. I was prosecuted, fined and barred from the classroom, and was lucky not to find myself imprisoned. I was only saved from this by the most wonderful support from a number of colleagues, old boys and parents to whom I told the facts, and who, realising the essentially non-violent and mutual nature of our liaison, rallied round and wrote letters the court, or gave evidence in person.

I feel no resentment towards Peter for my ruined career and his part in it. I went into the affair with my eyes open, but without realising that a boy of integrity – and I could not give myself to any lesser person – would be likely to want to consult his parents. What, after all, could be more natural? In Greek times, the parents of such a boy would’ve been proud he had formed such a fruitful relationship. It’s not his fault that current mores condemn it and our laws declare it illegal. Our legislation on the subject is inflexible, indiscriminatory and illiberal, and is based on a most cowardly principle: if something exists that can easily be abused, it should be banned altogether.

‘Protest and Reply’, p. 7 (reproduced here)

Reviews of Morris Fraser, The Death of Narcissus, p. 8.
And of film Bugsy Malone.
Bugsy Malone and his Moll have a beauty so magical and bewitching that it makes one think of Oberon and Titania. But they are also a Hansel and Gretel pair, human and typically ‘good’.
The director, with a huge cast of children, most of them pre-pubertal age, has produced a serious satire on the behaviour of adults using the 1920’s Chicago hoodlum scene as his medium. Social satire and irony are everywhere. There’s even a moral message at the end: gangsters throw away your guns, and by inference, super powers your atom bombs.
But children, and adults too, can enjoy the spectacle for fun. Paedophiles should not miss it. The camera, as if unwittingly, brings out the freshness, directness and eagerness that belongs to childhood, and childhood alone. (anonymous reviewer)

Profile of Keith Hose, p. 8. Also of Frits Bernard.
Hose was 25 at the time.

‘Your Guide to Under Age Sex’, p. 9
Mentioning three men receiving prison sentences for ‘unlawful sexual intercourse’ and ‘indecent assault’ upon a 14 year old girl – David Roberts (22), Derek Taylor (26) and Geoffrey Simonds (28).

‘Fury Mounts’, p. 9, about groups calling for ‘stiffer penalties’ against those convicted of sex with minors.
Mentions convictions of David Goff (29) and Keith Caldwell (31), sentenced to 4 years for seizing a 12-year old girl, dragging her to an embankment, raping her and leaving her tied to the railings.

And campaign by Bournemouth housewife, Mrs Christine Jolliffe.

‘Fight for Justice’, p. 10

‘Jo Richardson MP, the National Council for Civil Liberties and the Labour Campaign for Gay Rights are among the several individuals and organisations that have protested to the Lord Chancellor, on PIE’s behalf, over a judge’s comments at a recent Old Bailey trial.

They are demanding that the judge be disciplined, and are supporting the Exchange in its claim that the remarks may well have been a “serious breach of legal ethics.”

When sentencing Andre Stephen Thorne (21) to 3 years for theft and the attempted blackmail of a PIE applicant, the judge, Mr Justice King-Hamilton, said that PIE had “access to potential dynamite,” and added: “On the face of it, some sort of an offence is being committed by the person or persons running this organisation (THE SUN, Feb. 4th).. I wonder if the membership forms are collected from members of the public for the purposes of blackmail (SOUTH LONDON PRESS)?

PIE’s reaction was fast and furious. Secretary, Tom O’Carroll drafted an immediate letter to THE GUARDIAN; and on March the 17th, Deputy Leader, Warren Middleton despatched a press release announcing that the group would lodge the “strongest possible protest” with the Lord Chancellor and the Home Secretary.

Soon after, PIE’s Chairperson, Keith Hose, contacted the NCCL, finally requesting Jo Richardson (Labour, Barking) to table a question in the Commons. She declined, but has since filed an official complaint with Elwyn Jones.

The first of the protests, from the NCCL (29/3/’77), described the comments as “extremely unfortunate” and accused the judge of “misusing his position to make comments which were unwarranted and without any apparent foundation.”

Prompted by the reply which, said a Council official, was “totally unsatisfactory,” the NCCL then approached Lord Beaumont of Whitley asking him to raise the matter in the Lords. But he, too, declined.

Now, the Council is seeking the advice of Lord Hailsham, himself a former Lord Chancellor, and will act in accordance with his reply.

Meantime, PIE’s own protest will be lodged in July at an, as yet, unspecified date.

‘Surrey Witch-Hunt’, p. 10
About a special squad to combat sex offences in Surrey, Chief Constable Mr Peter Mathews [sic].

‘Probe at Youth Centre’, p. 11
A high level probe is underway into allegations of staff misconduct at Britain’s top centre for problem children.

The inquiry was ordered by the Health Department after two MP’s – Sir Bernard Braine (Tory, South East Essex) and Mr Peter Bottomley (Con. West Wolwich [sic] ) – had received complaints by staff at the maximum security St. Charles Youth Treatment Centre, Essex, and from the parents of a teenaged girl who claimed she was put on the pill at 15 and allowed to sleep there with her boyfriend.

The centre, which was opened six years ago in Brentwood, is staffed by a highly experienced team of teachers, youth workers and social therapists. It caters for children in the age group 10 to 18 who’ve been placed there by the courts, or by councils which have them in care.

A staff spokesman blamed the trouble on a minority of colleagues. He accused one of them of “having an affair with a girl” and said it was a “common practise for some staff to look through a peep-hole into her room while they made love.” The man had since deserted his wife and was now living with the girl.

Among other claims under investigation are (a) that boys and girls were allowed to sleep together; (b) a report of a 17 year old boy who was savagely beaten by a teacher; (c) a lesbian relationship between a staff member and a pupil; and (d) that girls were allowed to bring back ‘pick-ups’ after a night out on the town.

The centre’s Deputy Director, Mr Alan Dunton, said he was not in a position to discuss the allegations. “I am proud of our work in dealing with some of the most disturbed children in the country.”

‘NCCL Conference’, p. 11 – reproduced here.

p. 11 – but about contributor Mr ‘Charles Gerriovenski’ – a pseudonym. He ‘was a much respected member of staff at a boys’ boarding school until an affair with one of his pupils forced his dismissal.
Since then, he has been self-employed, but hopes, one day, to return to the career he loves.
A PIE members, Mr Gerrivoenski is married with three children.
Please note: The activities described in Mr Gerriovenski’s article are illegal and cannot be endorsed by UP.

Back page (p. 12) – ads for The Leveller, Peace News, Libertine magazine (editors Colin Johnson, Dr. Arabella Melville), Forum, ‘it’, and ‘Boy’ magazine (published COQ International A/S, Norre Farimagsgade 65-67, DK-1007 Copenhagen K), and NCCL (186 Kings Cross road, London WC1X 9DE)

‘Stop Press – Stop Press’, p. 12
AGM took place at Islington HQ of London Friend on May 28th.
Resignations from EC: Hose (as Chairperson) and Peter Righton (as Community Liaison Officer).
Full national EC election results: ex teacher/journalist Mr Tom O’Carroll, new Chairperson
Former lecturer/assistant JP Mr David C Grove new Secretary
Ex-teacher Mr Charles S. Napier, Treasurer (returned)
Social Worker Mr Jonathan Simon, new Organiser Local Groups
Private Businessman Mr Warren Middleton (p), Magazine Editor (returned)
Teacher Mr David Brownough (p), new Newsletter Editor
University lecturer/sociologist Dr. Humphrey Barton* (p), new Research Director (*subject to confirmation)

Then the following is a summary of the contents of PIE publication Childhood Rights:
Childhood Rights

Vol. 1 No. 1
PIE c/o/ Release, 1 Elgin Avenue, London W9.

Editor: David Grove for Paedophile Information Exchange.

Four pages. Short sections on ‘Revaluation’, ‘Though for the Day’, ‘The United Nations Scene’, ‘The Christian West’, ‘The Victorian Inheritance’, ‘Process Thought’, ‘Neither Wrong nor Holy’, ‘What would Gulliver Think?’, ‘New from the Front’ (to do with corporal punishment), ‘Europe’, (more on corporal punishment), ‘Intimidation and Mystification produce Alienation’ (on people being born ‘multisexual’), ‘The Facts about Corporal Punishment in Schools’

Vol. 1 No. 2
‘The Forbidden Speech’
‘Introduction’, p. 1. On Brongersma affair from 1977. Told that he will be ‘unwelcome’ at the Conference at Swansea.

‘On Loving Relationships Human and Humane’, pp. 1-4, by Brongersma.

And letter from Brongersma, p. 4.

Vol. 1 No. 3
Letters of support from Brongersma, Frits Bernard, Michael Ingram, p. 1.
Ingram: ‘I wish you well in your project to produce a paper on childhood rights, and hope you will keep me on your mailing list.
I hope that in sexual matters you would develop the following theme, one which concerns me greatly. The law defines as ‘corruption’ any act of a sexual nature with persons under the age of consent. The law, as well as society, has yet to face the fact that ‘corruption’ any act of a sexual nature with destruction of, or the damage of, not ‘indulgence in’; and many children are corrupted in the sense in which I have defined it, not only by their teachers and parents who take a negative attitude towards sexual functions, but also by those who get hysterical if a child is found out in some sexual play, those who use police and doctors to dramatise sexual experiences that have taken place, and those who make sexual sins the only sins worth mentioning.
While I welcome your project, and authorise you to publish this little note, I do so only on condition that I am not in any way made to support or condone sexual acts between adults and children.
From the Rev. Michael Ingram, O.P., Child Counsellor. (p. 1)

And letter from A.J. Ayer supporting their anti-corporal punishment campaign (p. 1).
And from Baroness Wootton of Abinger, and Jo Richardson, MP (all p. 1)

J.Z. Eglinton, ‘Boy-Love: Fantasies, Realities, Legalities’, pp. 1-2

Other bits and pieces.

And here is a summary of the material in the PIE publication Paedophilia: Some Questions and Answers (London: PIE, 1978)

[All questions given as they appear in the document; answers are my summaries of what is printed]


1. What is paedophilia?

2. What do you mean by “children”?
[between birth and puberty]

3. Are paedophiles exclusively attracted to children?

4. What age-group attracts paedophiles?
[Usually 8-15]

5. Are all paedophiles male? Are they all homosexual?
[No to both]

6. Are they ever married? What about paedophile feelings within the family?
[Some are]

7. Would most paedophiles like to be “normal”?
[some would, others think it is harmless and integral to their personality]

8. Have they chosen to be paedophile?
[No more than anyone else has chosen sexual feelings]

9. Is paedophilia an illness?
[Matter of opinion. Points out that medical profession used to view homosexuality as an illness]

10. Is it possible to change paedophiles?
[All psychiatrists can do is make them happier]

11. Surely paedophiles must be immature people?
[Asks what maturity is?]

12. Why aren’t they attracted to partners of their own age?
[Some are; otherwise no-one really knows. Why does question matter?]

13. What attracts paedophiles to children, and especially to children of certain ages?
[same factors as for other sexual/emotional preferences]

14. Is it true that paedophiles assault children?
[Almost never. Attacks legal term ‘indecent assault’]

15. Surely paedophiles force children into sex?
[Says ‘Again, almost never’. Points out that children are interested in sex from an early age, citing Kinsey, and Lauretta Bender and Abraham Blau, the Reaction of Children to Sexual Relations with Adults (1973), on how the child often initiates things]

16. Bu the adult most often be the seducer, obviously?
[Disputes that ‘seduction’ implies ‘sin, corruption or other anti-sexual concepts’]

17. Surely many children are not capable of sexual activity before puberty?
[Points out that puberty is about reproduction, not the age when sexual pleasure begins]

18. What do paedophiles do sexually to children?
[Depends upon sex and age of participants. ‘Fondling, kissing and mutual masturbation are the most usual activities’]

19. Why do we hear so little about women paedophiles?
[Prosecutions are rare, ‘probably because women can express their sexual feelings towards children in a far less obvious way than men. Mothers can be extremely sensual with their children, for instance, without attracting untoward attention, as indeed can women in such professions as social work, child nursing and teaching.’]

20. Won’t paedophile experience harm children physically?
[Suggests there are few hard facts to show this. Cites Wolfenden report on Homosexuality to show that it is rare for physical injury to result from buggery. For girls, hymen may rupture, but real damage extremely uncommon.]

21. What about the risk of a young girl becoming pregnant?
[Only possible after menstruation begins]

22. But shouldn’t we protect children from VD?
[Same for adults]

23. What about the psychological effect on the child?
[Says that if agreeable, no ill effect at all. Citers Bender/Blau as showing that many pre-pubescent children who had sexual contacts with adults seemed to benefit from it]

24. Do paedophile contacts predispose children to become paedophile or homosexual?
[No – though that view is widely held]

25. Surely children are innocent?
[Innocent as meaning chastity is an invention of puritans]

26. Do children really know what they’re doing?
[Often know more than they are given credit for]

27. But are children capable of “consenting” to sexual activity?
(a) Can children take a moral decision at an early age?
[Says that sexual activity is morally neutral]
(b) Surely children can’t always tell adults what they want?
[Even babies can express their wishes]
(c) How can a young child deter an adult?
[Just as with rape or use of drugs or physical force. Too many hang-ups make it harder for children to speak up without feeling embarrassed. But children refuse things very easily]
(d) What if the adult persists, and gets the child to agree to something it doesn’t really want?
[Then adult should be liable to legal action and social condemnation]

28. Isn’t there the danger of a paedophile being a child-murderer?
[No, no reason to associate it with hatred or sadism]

29. Surely the best advice is “never talk to strangers”?
[Children rarely attacked by strangers]

30. Are paedophile relationships illegal?
[Yes, where sexual acts involved]

31. But surely these laws are necessary to protect children?
[Laws have caused greater harm and led to children being humiliated, separated, ostracised, feeling guilt. Same with some parents. Care orders have been brought against children who have sought out sexual relationships]

32. What is the effect of the law on the paedophiles themselves?
[Humiliated, ostracised, harassed, imprisoned and put in solitary. Often commit suicide]

33. What is the worst defect of the present law?
[Makes loving and caring relationships, and those involving force or coercion, seem the same]

34. Should the age of consent be abolished altogether?
[‘Yes. Consent is important, age is not.’]

35. Wouldn’t lowering or abolishing the age of consent lead to an increase in child prostitution?
[Tighter sanctions against child prostitution may be needed. But it happens because society prevents people from being together]

36. What of the dangers of child pornography?
[Nothing wrong with child erotica as long as child happy to take part.]

37. Can’t children learn about sex among themselves?
[They do, but adults can help a more thoughtful approach]

38. Shouldn’t parents have some control over their children’s sex lives?
[Parents already have much power, but loving ones will allow their children to experiment]

39. Can a paedophile relationship last?
[Points out that after adolescence, rejection is not necessary – unpossessive friendship remains]

40. Teachers, clergymen, scoutmasters and youth workers are thought to be particularly prone to child-love. Are they, and should paedophiles be excluded from youth work?
[Naturally paedophiles are drawn to areas working with children – stopping them would deprive these fields]

41. Does paedophilia lead to the breakdown of family life?
[Family will survive as long as it deserves to. Paedophile relationship can help those in unhappy families]

42. What are paedophiles doing to help each other?
[PIE. ‘Founded in 1974 it is seeking to dispel the myths connected with paedophilia, and trying to show that most paedophiles desire gentle, loving and mutually pleasurable relationships. The group believes that attitudes towards young people should change so that the existence of their sexuality and other feelings are recognised and accepted. Its aim is to make public scientific, sociological and similar information about paedophilia to show how the lives of children and paedophiles are distorted by society’s prohibitive values. PIE also tries to provide a means whereby paedophiles can communicate with one another and so help reduce the feleing of guilty isolation which is often a feature of their lives’]

43. How can I help?
[Understand paeds are ordinary, decent, sensible people. Allow them to express themselves openly, without fear. Realise children should have some degree of control over their own lives. Look back at one’s own childhood and ask if ever drawn to an adult. Acknowledge that as an adult may have suppressed unconventional sexual feelings. Think of sex in all its forms as pleasant and likeable]

Appendix 1: The Law

Details on Laws, first in England/Wales, then Scotland/NI. Definitions of Gross Indecency, Indecent Assault, Unlawful Sexual Intercourse and Buggery.

Incidence of paedophile offences. Numbers of convictions, from Home office research Unit Bulletin No. 3, Spring 1976 and Criminal Statistic for England and Wales, 1973.

Asks ‘Has Paedophile activity always been outlawed in Britain?’

Age of consent for females went up in late 19th century, from 12 to 13, then 13 to 16. Then 1885 Criminal Law Amendment Act created offence of “gross indecency between males”.

Is it outlawed in all cultures?
Points out that Kiwai of New Guinea think young males should be sodomised during puberty rites to “make them strong”.
Also cites how Napoleonic Code loosened previous connections between laws and morals. In Holland all kinds of sexual relations with children were legal until 1886, when age of consent raised to 16. Sim in France until counter revolutionary activity by Church. But since 1960s Western European countries have been lowering their ages of consent.

Address given as PIE, P.O. Box 318, London SE3 8QD

[EDIT: I am now also able to include a full scan of Paedophilia: Some Questions and Answers, which is given below]

PIE - Some Q and A 1

PIE - Some Q and A 2

PIE - Some Q and A 3

PIE - Some Q and A 4

PIE - Some Q and A 5

PIE - Some Q and A 6

PIE - Some Q and A 7

PIE - Some Q and A 8

PIE - Some Q and A 9

PIE - Some Q and A 10

PIE - Some Q and A 11

PIE - Some Q and A 12

PIE - Some Q and A 13

PIE - Some Q and A 14

PIE - Some Q and A 15

PIE - Some Q and A 16

PIE - Some Q and A 17

11 Comments on “PIE – documentary evidence 4 – UP, ‘Childhood Rights’, and Paedophilia – some questions and answers”

  1. […] have blogged at length reproducing documents relating to NCCL and PIE (see here, here, here, here, here, here and here), and also on the Whitehall senior civil servant (formerly a church minister and […]

  2. […] before the one previously noticed. This is now mentioned above (and was already mentioned in my PIE Documentary Evidence 4 blog […]

  3. […] have blogged at length reproducing documents relating to NCCL and PIE (see here, here, here, here, here, here and here), and also on the Whitehall senior civil servant (formerly a church minister and […]

  4. […] publications (see the ample amount of material I have published on this blog here, here and here) and appear to have been influenced by aspects of PIE thinking in their policy, as well as having […]

  5. […] PIE – documentary evidence 4 – UP, ‘Childhood Rights’, and Paedophilia – some questions an… (27/2/14) […]

  6. […] Grove and Charles Napier) who made up the executive committee (see Vol. 1, No. 2, June-July 1976, here), was able to obtain such a degree of influence within the social work profession and, if the […]

  7. […] 1979, is well-known. He was a regular contributor to various PIE publications (see here, here and here) and author of Paedophilia: The Radical Case, and has been imprisoned three times, first for two […]

  8. […] ‘Britain ‘intolerant’ on child sex’, The Observer, September 4th, 1977; ‘The Forbidden Speech’, Childhood Rights, Vol. 1, No. 2, p. 1 – this issue of the PIE publication also contained Brongersma’s ‘On Loving […]

  9. […] of the group (member number 51, and a member of the Executive Committee, by mid-1976 at the latest (‘It’s the Magnificent Six’, Understanding Paedophilia, Vol. 1, No. 2 (June-July 1976), p. 7), serving as ‘Organiser of prison-hospital visits/general correspondence/PIE befriending'; in […]

  10. […] of the group (member number 51, and a member of the Executive Committee, by mid-1976 at the latest (‘It’s the Magnificent Six’,Understanding Paedophilia, Vol. 1, No. 2 (June-July 1976), p. 7), serving as ‘Organiser of prison-hospital visits/general correspondence/PIE befriending'; in […]

  11. […] Britten. Paedophiles will often present themselves as advocates for children’s rights (one PIE publication was called Childhood Rights) in order to gain children’s trust and the opportunity to have maximum contact with […]

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